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ได้ทีขี่แพะไล่

Complete sentences, phrases, and figurative speech

Moderator: acloudmovingby

ได้ทีขี่แพะไล่

Postby meuok » Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:55 am

ได้ทีขี่แพะไล่
Never come across this chap. Info, please....and why a goat?
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Re: ได้ทีขี่แพะไล่

Postby Pirin » Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:29 am

meuok wrote:ได้ทีขี่แพะไล่
Never come across this chap. Info, please....and why a goat?


ได้ทีขี่แพะไล่ = idiom = rub salt into somebody's wounds
เสนาะโสตเสียงสุนทรีย์มีสรรค์สร้าง ลิขิตทางวางบรรจบสบสองเรา
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Re: ได้ทีขี่แพะไล่

Postby theoldman » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:24 pm

Hi Meuok,

I believe Pirin already gave you the good (if not the best) answer.

Let me an example:

When someone try to translate a proverb, say, "If the ox fall , whet your knife" (from Hebrew, I think) into Thai, they might also get "ได้ทีขี่แพะไล่". The difference is "If the ox fall , whet your knife" has a bit positive meaning which is "do not let slip the occasion of getting the victory over enemy" while "ได้ทีขี่แพะไล่" has a bit negative meaning, at least in the Thai way (or the Buddhist way). It gives the sense of ซ้ำเติม (to aggravate/worsen) or ทับถม (defame, slander etc.) others (which is bad in Buddhism if you try to make a victim of other). In short, it means to make other people getting worse when they made some mistakes.

ได้ที means "have an advantage over, get/gain/have the upper hand".

As for ขี่แพะไล่ (literally means "riding a goat in chasing". First I had no idea what it came form and thought it was just a figure. After doing some search, I found that it was from some tales (stories) in the book for children at primary schools around AD 1952. Frankly speaking, I'm not sure if it was just the make up story to help little students memorize this idiom. Anyway, it goes like this:
Once there was a crippled rabbit and a blind goat. They made an alliance as they had to rely on each other. The rabbit, who could not walk, would ride the goat who could not see, and told him which way to go. One day they found an elephant who was trying to escape from a tiger. The rabbit told the elephant that he would find the way to help and told him to pretend to be dead while he pretended to eat him. When the tiger came, he was so surprised to see that. The rabbit made an advantage over that surprise (ได้ที) by roaring and roaring. The tiger was frightened by that roar and ran away. Again, the rabbit saw that he got the upper hand, so he "rode the goat to chase" (ขี่แพะไล่) the tiger. The end.

P.S. Sorry for any errors and typos. Have not enough time to check it.
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Re: ได้ทีขี่แพะไล่

Postby Tgeezer » Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:15 am

Thank you old man that is how I like to hear things explained.
ได้ที, ขี้แพะไล่ Parsing is the thing I have to learn, had there been ก็ or แล้ว or even a space after ได้ที i might have seen the separation.
I would expect the story to come from Aesop’s fables but then the tiger would have been a wolf, I am not sure about the rabbit, is it indigenous to S.E. Asia?
Pirin’s Rubbing salt into the wound, is to make a person feel less happy or comfortable when they are already down is about the same isn’t it?
.
One could talk around and around these things all day!
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Re: ได้ทีขี่แพะไล่

Postby theoldman » Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:52 am

Hi Tgeezer,

Long time, no see. Glad to meet you here again.

Don't know if it's only me or not. Recently I've found it is so hard to open the pages on our forum (taking so long time), not to mention to sign in.

As for you questions, though we have the rabbit year like Chinese, I don't think the rabbit is indigenous to S.E. Asia. And you might be right that the story might came from Aesop’s fables (or somewhere else). I guess the writer who made this story probably picked them up a little bit from here and a little bit form there.
About the parsing, in this case, my answer is yes and no. Yes, you can write, "ได้ที, ขี่แพะไล่" or "ได้ที ขี่แพะไล่" (with no comma). But it's also okay for "ได้ทีขี่แพะไล่" (with no comma/space/separation). I honestly don't know why. Maybe it's only kind of an imaginary space in one's mind? I mean a Thai speaker will know it whether there's the separation or not.

Anyway, in other cases, I do agree with you that it's very important about the parsing /separation. As the old joke goes:

ยานี้ดีกินแล้วแข็งแรง ไม่มีโรคภัยเบียดเบียน or the better one is ยานี้ดี กินแล้วแข็งแรง ไม่มีโรคภัยเบียดเบียน - This medicine is good. (Making you) getting healthy after taking it and not being afflicted with any disease).

What will happen if there were wrong parsings:

ยานี้ดี กินแล้วแข็ง แรงไม่มี โรคภัยเบียดเบียน
-This medicine is good (ยานี้ดี). After taking it you will get hard. (yes, sexual sense here) (กินแล้วแข็ง). No strength left. (แรงไม่มี). And being afflicted with diseases. (โรคภัยเบียดเบียน)

There was a time when any Thai editor had to work hard on this stuff. They used to use two spaces to separate a sentence and one space for (helping the readers to easily get) the parsing. (It has never been the case in English as a full stop means the end of the sentence.) However, the publishers didn't happy with that as it made the books much thicker than it should be. And that meant the higher cost. Finally, they use only one space both for separating the parsing and the sentence. For example, ได้ทีขี่แพะไล่ it at least should be "ได้ที ขี่แพะไล่" (with one space). If not, a reader might misread it as "ได้ทีขี่ แพะไล่" -When you've got a chance to ride (something). A goat will chase (your?) which is the wrong meaning or has no meaning at all.

From Pirin's answer and yours, I got the long version of this (just to make it easily to understand):

When you've got a chance to be gain the upper hand over someone, you take that advantage by rubbing salt into their wound (or making them feel less happy or comfortable when they are already down).
Note-This idiom doesn't mean you should take that chance/advantage. One the contary, you should not as I already explained it on my prior post.

P.S. Do you still go golfing? What's your handicap now?
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Re: ได้ทีขี่แพะไล่

Postby Pirin » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:58 am

Tgeezer wrote:Thank you old man that is how I like to hear things explained.
ได้ที, ขี้แพะไล่ Parsing is the thing I have to learn, had there been ก็ or แล้ว or even a space after ได้ที i might have seen the separation.
I would expect the story to come from Aesop’s fables but then the tiger would have been a wolf, I am not sure about the rabbit, is it indigenous to S.E. Asia?
Pirin’s Rubbing salt into the wound, is to make a person feel less happy or comfortable when they are already down is about the same isn’t it?
.
One could talk around and around these things all day!


RID does give the explanation.

ได้ทีขี่แพะไล่ (สำ) .
ซํ้าเติมเมื่อผู้อื่นเพลี่ยงพลํ้าลง.
เสนาะโสตเสียงสุนทรีย์มีสรรค์สร้าง ลิขิตทางวางบรรจบสบสองเรา
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Re: ได้ทีขี่แพะไล่

Postby Pirin » Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:32 pm

1. เอาชนะ
“A beat B 5-0 in their 1999 game.”

2. ได้ทีขี่แพะไล่
“A's coach believes his side were better ‘in all segments of the game’ as they won their World Cup semi-final against B."
เสนาะโสตเสียงสุนทรีย์มีสรรค์สร้าง ลิขิตทางวางบรรจบสบสองเรา
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Re: ได้ทีขี่แพะไล่

Postby Tgeezer » Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:30 pm

Just like old times, both Pirin and you, old man, on the keyboard! Missing David, et al.
Yes the site has become a little slower, I know nothing of computers so can’t explain that.
Golf? Still thrashing around and past the point of being able to improve I am afraid because I don’t see the point of it as a game, I go out for the exercise, I don’t derive the same thrill from putting as others seem to or from winning for that matter. I am seldom in a position to ได้ทีขี้แพะไล่ , I console myself with the thought that I make my opponents happy.

To the subject:
It seems to me that all verbs must have a subject so ได้ทีขี้ แพะไล่ means that แพะ must be the subject of ได้ที since it is the only subject mentioned. Also with no space the pattern is; verb object- verb object- Verb, each must have a common subject. I wonder if this is a rule which we all subconsciously see if we know the meanings and roles of words. Also I wonder if we work out the gist of the words, good, bad or neutral as far as the subject is concerned obviating the need for more precise translation.
This brings us to culture, if it is good for the subject, then it is bad for the object. This renders the situation as being wrong in ศีลธรรม . In finding an equivalent saying in English I think that this has to be the starting point. Rubbing salt into the wound is the meaning but so do; Hitting when he is down, Adding insult to injury.. I am sure that there are others but which to use would depend on meeting the situation.
However I resist translation preferring to keep to one language. The RID is a great resource is it not Pirin? I always start with the RID when trying to understand the meanings and use of words. I derive satisfaction from working things out for myself.
Expanding on the topic a little. I was surprised to learn that ประสบการณ์ is a ศัพยบัญญัติ for ‘experience’ and that the RID explains it as ความจัดเจนที่เกิดจากการกระทำหรือได้พบเห็นมา > “Story clear which from doing or meeting-seeing comes.” As the definition shows Thai doesn’t need that word. So I think that it is there to fulfil the need to use English syntax.
A gain time, A ride goat, A chase, is not very good English syntax either.
This goes a little way to explain why I prefer to stay with Thai.
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Re: ได้ทีขี่แพะไล่

Postby Tgeezer » Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:09 am

My post doesn’t show the space. ได้ทีขี้ แพะไล่ is the situation where แพะ is the subject of ไล่ not the case if there is no space.
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Re: ได้ทีขี่แพะไล่

Postby theoldman » Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:55 am

Hi Tgeezer,

You made a very good point about ได้ทีขี่แพะไล่ by using your own ประสบการณ์ on golfing. It's true. I've never been good at any sport/game nor like to play it because of that very reason. When the gain time is mine, I don't like to win (don’t like to ได้ทีขี่แพะไล่) even deep down I honestly don't like to lose either.

One thing about Thai language that might seems to be odd (in English) is sometimes, many times, it doesn't need a subject. I means you can skip it (subject) and somehow Thai listeners will understand you so well. I'm not sure if that's against Thai grammar's rule or not (learnt it for too long to remember it). One example that popped up in my mind right now is this (Thai verse):

ขอส่งสารมาสมานมายเดียสมร For better reading, here it is, ขอส่งสาร มาสมาน มายเดียสมร
Let send this message, to unite with, my dear/beloved beautiful girl.

(yes, มายเดีย is transliteration)

As my English grammar is always quite bad, the best I could so is just using "sending" instead of "send" but I had to skip ขอ (“let”) or I might “letting this message” (ขอให้สารนี้) which I had to omit ส่ง (sending). The point is still the same, who is the subject that sending the message? In Thai, we will get that anyone who said or wrote that sentence was the one, the subject. The word omitted is "ฉัน" (the speaker, the writer).

(ฉัน) ขอส่งสาร มาสมาน มายเดียสมร
I’d like to send this message to unite with my dear beautiful girl. Or

ขอ (ฉัน) ส่งสาร มาสมาน มายเดียสมร
Please give me a permission to (or let me) send this message to unite with my beloved beautiful girl.


The same as ได้ทีขี่แพะไล่. The subject (omitted) is the same subject from the prior sentence (s), the rabbit. He was the one who had rode the goat, not the other way around. And when the time came (ได้ที), he also did it again.
But yes, I do understand your point. And that's why is so hard (if not impossible) to deal with two languages at the same time. When I wrote in English to post somewhere else, I just tried to think only in English, and I hardly got stuck though my English grammar is still the same bad. But when I wrote to post here, concerning about Thai, I had to think twice or more. I know so well that sometimes, many times, even it makes sense in Thai, it doesn't mean it would make sense in English. Worse than that, many times I could not find the right words in English. I didn't mean only about precise translation but also my little English thesaurus storehouse. For example the Thai word แปลก can be used in so many contexts for example, แปลกตา (look strange) แปลกใจ (to surprise) แปลกหน้า (unacquainted one) and แปลกประหลาด (odd, uncommon, queer, weird, peculiar). So which English word for แปลก I have to choose even I can use แปลก in so many contexts in Thai?

You wrote, "This brings us to culture, if it is good for the subject, then it is bad for the object. This renders the situation as being wrong in ศีลธรรม . In finding an equivalent saying in English I think that this has to be the starting point. Rubbing salt into the wound is the meaning but so do; Hitting when he is down, Adding insult to injury...I am sure that there are others but which to use would depend on meeting the situation."

I more than agree with you on this. It depends on its context (the situation met). Always. While it’s true that "time and tide waits for no man" so น้ำขึ้นให้รีบตัก (Make Hay While The Sun Shines), it's also true that ช้าๆได้พร้าเล่มงาม (Slow but sure/Rome was not built in a day/Slow and steady wins the race/Consistent, effective effort leads to success. It depends on its context, doesn’t it?

น้ำขึ้นให้รีบตัก literally means "when rising tide comes, scooping it quickly"
ช้าๆ ได้พร้าเล่มงาม- doing it slowly, you will get/make the very good big knife" (my guess is it's from the way to forge a good knife).

As for ประสบการณ์ , I think it's from Pali (hmm…or Sanskrit?). ประสบ means พบ (facing/meeting); การณ์ means "events/circumstances/situations". But like the wetness of water that has nothing to do with originated two hydrogens and one oxygen, ประสบการณ์ means more than just encountering many situations. It also means skills, masterfulness, proficiency and/or even vision/insight.
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